Piotr Łukasiewicz: "Our Strategic Goal Is for Ukraine to Emerge Victorious in this War"

2025 could be a very successful year for our European integration. Of course, if Ukraine uses the opportunities that this year offers. In particular, the presidency of the Council of the European Union of two countries friendly to Ukraine, namely Poland and Denmark. Political leaders in Warsaw are already making proposals to accelerate our country's accession to the European Union. And Kyiv hopes to open up as many opportunities for negotiations as possible during the Polish presidency.

But is everything really going so well? What will be Poland's position when the negotiations reach, for example, the agricultural sector? Will the presidential campaign in our neighbors affect Warsaw's position regarding the Ukraine-European Union negotiations and regarding support for Ukraine in the war against the aggressor, namely Russian Federation?

ZN.UA talked about all this and more with the Chargé d'affaires of Poland in Ukraine, Piotr Łukasiewicz.

— Mr. Łukasiewicz, Prime Minister Donald Tusk recently stated that Warsaw will take an active part in any negotiations regarding the Russian-Ukrainian war during the Polish presidency of the European Union. But what will be the purpose of these negotiations? It is very important for us to understand how the political leaders in Warsaw see the end of this war.

— Poland has been and will continue to fully support Ukraine in its aspirations to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the European Union as a free and independent state from the very beginning.

Ukraine must remain within its borders, as established by international law, and, of course, it must resist the criminal actions of the Russian Federation, fight this unjust war and win it fairly. I would like to emphasize that victory in the war must be fair.

This is our strategic goal, namely, that Ukraine ultimately remains the winner in this war.

— Now there have already begun discussions about various possible negotiation formats. Recently, German Chancellor candidate Friedrich Merz proposed creating a Contact Group of countries such as Germany, France, Poland and Great Britain to develop a common European position regarding the end of the war. How does Warsaw feel about this proposal?

— For us, the key thing is that Poland is a Central European country and Ukraine also belongs to this region. We do not perceive Ukraine simply as a country that was attacked and that is fighting. For us, it is part of Europe. This means that the countries bear common responsibility. Of course, Poland, together with its European partners, will strive to resolve the situation, because this is our strategic interest. Because the war in Ukraine is a war in Europe, a war in this region where we are all now.

Since 2022, Poland has been very actively involved in helping Ukraine within the framework of our bilateral relations. But, in addition, Poland is part of the European Union and the created chain of assistance, in particular from such large countries as you mentioned, such countries as France and Germany.

Contacts between Donald Tusk and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy are very important now. Mr. Donald Tusk also uses them to attract other countries to help Ukraine as much as possible. In addition, it is worth noting that Poland acts in a multi-vector manner. It is mentioned that Polish political leaders cooperate both with Ukraine separately and with the countries of the European Union. These efforts by Prime Minister Tusk are very important because he plays a significant role in the European Union and is listened to. It is important to use such opportunities, knowledge of each other, common contacts to help in a common important matter. Poland is also a country that has provided and continues to provide military assistance to Ukraine. But, in addition, we are neighbors and, undoubtedly, we should have good neighborly relations. After all, Poland's security also depends on Ukraine's security, because we are close, in the same region. We are closely connected with Ukraine, that is, we have close ties with it, this includes the economy, social life, and history. We have many different common vectors of intersection.

— In some countries, even at a high official level, statements are already being made that Ukraine should give up part of its territory to the Russian Federation in order to end the war. But it was Poland that recently surprised us with its opinion on this issue. A sociological survey showed that 55% of Poles believe that the war should be ended, even if Ukraine has to give up part of its territory. What is the reason for such a change in public opinion? Can such a vision become Warsaw's official position?

— As a government representative, head of the diplomatic mission, and even as a former soldier, I would like to emphasize that we categorically disagree with this opinion. Because now, when there is no talk at all about talking about something with the aggressor, that some kind of consensus can be reached with him. In addition, there is also no talk now about the fact that the representatives of the Russian Federation can understand something and are taking some steps to bring the negotiations closer, in such a situation, there is no point in setting any conditions for a peaceful settlement of the conflict. And therefore, you shouldn't listen to the voices of countries that propose what you said. After all, they think about the strategy of their country, but they don't have a common vision. What is happening, I would call the advantage of tactics over strategy. But we know that tactics cannot determine strategy. It's the other way around. And certain movements at the front do not determine the general strategy of what is happening.

As for the mentioned sociology, I am not an expert to give an assessment of such polls. But it is worth noting that such polls are not in-depth studies, they cannot be perceived as super-scientific. In addition, in conversations with my superiors, that is, ministers, high-ranking officials, I feel 100 percent support for Ukraine. Not 30, not 50 percent, but absolutely 100 percent support for Ukraine in its aspirations.

Of course, a certain fatigue may come in a country that accepts refugees, this is normal. In countries that accepted Afghan and Syrian refugees, such fatigue also came and it is worth noting that this is an absolutely natural process. At the same time, the Poles continue to help Ukrainians and help Ukraine. They do this out of nobility, out of humanity. I remember very well, I still have this picture before my eyes, how Polish mothers brought baby carriages and handed them over to Ukrainian women for their children.

Yes, there is already a certain fatigue. But at the same time, there is an understanding that Poland could be next. After all, our countries are located next to each other and we could become the next victim of aggression.

— The European Union's support for Ukraine in its fight against Russian aggression has been defined as a key task of the Polish presidency. But it coincides with the beginning of the presidency of Donald Trump, who may reduce assistance from the United States of America to Ukraine and demands that Europe increase its responsibility for what is happening on the European continent.

What other instruments of support in the military and non-military sphere can the European Union use, in addition to reviving the European defense industry and increasing arms supplies to Ukraine? Is Poland preparing any new initiatives?

— Well, Poland's presidency of the Council of the European Union does not greatly influence the American strategy.

And the main slogan of our presidency is security and safety not just of Europe, but also the security of Ukraine. Because these are two sides of the same problem. After all, if Ukraine is safe, then, accordingly, Europe is safe.

Of course, Poland during its presidency will try as much as possible to speed up the process of Ukraine's entry into the European Union, because this will open up new opportunities for your country. After all, in order to be more secure, Ukraine must become one of the parts of a united Europe.

It is worth noting that our current presidency is somewhat different from what it was ten years ago. Because now the country heading the Council of the European Union does not influence decisions, but is engaged in co-organization and promotes understanding of the procedures that a candidate country must go through. This happens because each country striving to join the European Union must certainly go through certain procedures and meet certain requirements in order to move forward.

What can really be influenced during the presidency is the level of consideration of issues that are currently troubling Ukraine and, of course, Poland. And this is the timeframe for completing the necessary procedures. Our task now will be a constant reminder that this is very important, that all this needs to be resolved as quickly as possible. In addition, Poland will do its utmost in this direction. And it will do everything possible to speed up the accession procedures for Ukraine to the European Union.

In addition, I would like to emphasize that the six months of Poland's presidency will be followed by six months of Denmark's presidency, a country whose vision is similar to Poland's. Therefore, 2025 is actually a year during which Ukraine will have significant support.

— Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy recently stated that Ukraine expects to open at least two of the six negotiating clusters during the Polish presidency. At the same time, Deputy Prime Minister Olha Stefanishyna, expressing understanding that this process will not be easy, also recalled the "political processes" in Poland, where the election campaign will be in full swing in the spring. To what extent can this affect our European integration? Should we expect any additional conditions from Polish political forces to open 15 negotiating sections for Ukraine in the first half of 2025, as Kyiv wants?

— I think that nothing will change much here, since, as we know, all the main candidates starting the presidential campaign believe that Ukraine should be part of Europe. Therefore, I would not combine this election process with our presidency and, in fact, with the position of Poland.

We have seen recently that the government has already changed in our country and at the same time nothing has changed in the relations between Poland and Ukraine.

We should not overestimate the influence of Polish domestic policy on the position on Ukraine, because regardless of what the government will be, Ukraine is considered part of Europe and, of course, this is a very important factor in Polish security. Therefore, some issues may be resolved more slowly, and some will be resolved faster under this or that government, but globally nothing changes in the strategy.

As for the negotiation clusters, of course, some of them could be opened faster, and some will need more time. In addition, it is worth noting that Poland has its own experience of joining the European Union, and this path was quite difficult and long. From this experience it is clear that if we are talking about the system of political relations, the diplomatic direction, then in these matters it will be easier. At the same time, when it comes to the economy, this direction can be quite difficult. Everyone understands that Ukraine will be in the European Union, it is perceived as a full-fledged partner, a future member. But Ukraine must go through all the steps that Poland went through in its time. And the most difficult steps for change await us in the economic sector. If everything is prepared well, the entry process will be significantly simplified. Since even during the entry period itself, difficulties may arise. To prevent this from happening, it is necessary to take care of everything in advance and introduce all the necessary standards so that all countries of the European Union confirm that Ukraine has reached the level when it can become one of the countries of the united Europe.

— You said that Poland will do everything possible to speed up the entry procedures for Ukraine. Does Warsaw support the idea of ​​​​a quick and, possibly, simultaneous opening of all clusters, as proposed in Kyiv? So that negotiations are conducted in parallel on all important clusters.

— Now everything will start with the opening of the fundamental cluster. Why is this important? First, it is important to understand that in the European Union, all countries are united not only by common values, but also by a common standard of living. These countries have a lot in common, they act and work in the same system. And it is clear that much depends on the level of democracy in the country, because it affects the economy and other spheres of life, diplomacy, international relations. That is, we can say that the level of democracy affects absolutely everything! It all works as a single system, where each element is important.

Therefore, the process of Ukraine's entry into the European Union is the adaptation of the Ukrainian system to the European one. We are talking about the fact that we do not communicate as equal partners, but Ukraine changes and adapts, catches up with the standards of the European Union. This is the main essence of what should happen.

That is, when we talk about accession negotiations, we are not talking about sitting down for a negotiation process and agreeing on something: you conceded this, and we did that, you did one thing, and we did another. Here we are talking about the fact that the European Union system works as a single organism. In addition, it is worth noting that it works at a certain level. We are talking about all spheres of life, namely the economy, politics, the legislative system, etc. About Ukraine being able to adapt its system to the level of the European Union. And then, when it adapts and catches up to the level of the European Union, it will be able to become a full-fledged partner and enter the European system, which works well, and become part of it. Poland went through this process for quite a long time, but it had completely different conditions. You are now in a full-scale war. Of course, this is very bad, and at the same time, Ukraine is fighting for European values, defending Europe. And war, no matter how unpleasant it may sound, can speed up some processes. In addition, it can be noted that Ukraine seems to be a country that is capable of going through this adaptation to the required level of the European Union very quickly and confidently.

And, undoubtedly, Poland's role here is to support Ukraine as much as possible so that it can make these changes quickly and join the common European system.

— The shadow fleet gives the Russian Federation the opportunity to receive additional money and thus finance the war against Ukraine. The European Union adopted the 15th package of sanctions, which, in particular, concern the shadow fleet. There is an agreement among 12 European countries to identify such tankers. Without overestimating the possibilities of Poland's influence during the presidency, let us still ask how Warsaw will fight Russia's shadow fleet? Are there any ideas?

— Of course, one of our priorities is to tighten the sanctions system. However, unfortunately, it is worth noting that it is sometimes quite difficult to determine how exactly Russian gas and oil got into the European Union. Of course, there are cases of illegal transportation, illegal entry of natural resources of the Russian Federation into the territory of European countries. In January-February, there will be more detailed information on this issue, and Poland will be able to report what has been done in this direction. This is one of our priorities, namely, to strengthen sanctions related to the entry of natural resources of the Russian Federation into Europe as much as possible.

We also need to take care of additional natural resources for countries that are practically doomed to use Russian natural resources, given their geographical location and certain features of their system. Of course, the European Union must ensure that these countries have sufficient resources to provide for themselves.

And if we have already decided that Russian gas and Russian oil are bad, then we must take all steps to refuse them as much as possible and to prevent them from entering Europe. It is worth noting that we must work together on this issue.

— Will Poland, during its presidency of the European Union, work to expand sanctions against Russian journalists, propagandists, analysts engaged in a disinformation campaign not only against Ukraine, but also against Poland and other countries of the European Union?

— Russian propagandists and journalists have no business in Europe. If they had estates, any property in Europe, then all of this has long been either arrested or transferred and confiscated.

But it is also about preventing the Kremlin's influence on Europe in general and on the elections in particular. The influence that, in fact, manifested itself during the voting in Romania and Moldova. In addition, it is worth noting that it is not only about disinformation and its influence on society. A technical failure that a Kremlin agent who has penetrated the system will create may affect the results of elections in a particular country in the future. Therefore, it is necessary to prevent the use of such technologies as much as possible.

— Polish members of the government, despite pressure from French President Macron, made it clear that Poland will not send its contingent to participate in the peacekeeping mission. Although we are talking about the period after the cessation of hostilities. Why does Poland, our neighbor and friend, not join the proposal of French President Macron?

— Mr. Donald Tusk clearly said that there can be no talk of any peacekeeping contingent now, because we do not see any evidence of the end of the war. Only when it is clear that the war is nearing its end, then we can talk about it. Now this decision cannot be based on the level of relevant conversations.

A full-scale war continues, as we see it, in cities such as Kyiv, Kharkov, Lvov, Sumy... But Ukraine must be the winner in it. And our task is to do everything possible for this. Therefore, Poland will continue to supply weapons, military equipment. Everything that is necessary for the fight. And Ukraine must take care to increase the number of its military, those people who can simply drive the Russian military out of Ukrainian territory.

It is worth noting that empty talk, not backed up by actions and some fantasies are inappropriate now.

— Did we correctly understand Mr. Donald Tusk's hint at the last press conference with the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy that Polish multifunctional combat aircraft, MiG fighter-interceptors, could be transferred to Ukraine?

— These multirole combat aircraft MiGs are used to defend the skies of Poland and the Baltic States. Negotiations are currently underway on how the defense of Polish skies can be maximally improved and strengthened so that Poland can transfer these MiG fighter-interceptors to Ukraine.

— If we are talking about protecting Polish skies, then why doesn't Poland shoot down missiles and drones that the Russian Federation launches that fly into Polish territory or fly close to it?

Concerns that Poland will be drawn into the conflict are not a significant argument. It is worth remembering that Polish instructors are training Ukrainian soldiers, a logistics route through Poland runs through the territory of Poland, along which weapons are delivered to Ukraine, repair bases are located on Polish territory where equipment is restored. And the drones and missiles that are proposed to be shot down are flying objects that do not have people on them.

— The Polish Air Force exists to defend Polish airspace from all types of threats, whether from missiles or drones. We are doing everything possible to strengthen the defense of the Polish skies as much as possible, of course, with the help of the allies of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

It is worth noting that we are transferring to Ukraine such air defense assets that we can transfer. I would like to recall the well-known Polish-made portable anti-aircraft missile system "Piorun", which protects the Ukrainian skies. We also appeal to our allies located far from the Russian Federation, whose airspace is not threatened, to provide Ukraine with as many air defense systems as possible.

— Our question was not about transferring some new air defense systems to Ukraine. Although this is vitally important for us. The question was why Poland, like some other countries, does not shoot down missiles and drones launched by the Russian Federation that fly into your territory.

— We are doing everything possible to protect our skies within the framework of the prescribed rules of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. And, by protecting our skies in this way, we help Ukraine as much as we can.

— Mr. Donald Tusk said that Poland will build fortifications within the framework of the Eastern Shield project not only on the border with the Russian Federation and Belarus, but also on the border with Ukraine. Why do this? Does Warsaw believe that Ukraine will fall under pressure from the Russian Federation?

— I know nothing about these structures on the Ukrainian border.

As for the fortifications on the Polish-Russian and Polish-Belarusian borders, they are aimed at countering the Russian Federation and Belarus. At one time, Belarus was dragging people from the Middle East so that they could massively penetrate Poland and commit sabotage there.

— Some countries have already organized joint ventures with Ukraine for the production of weapons and ammunition. Are there prospects for creating such Ukrainian-Polish enterprises?

— Such cooperation already exists. Unfortunately, I cannot talk about it in detail, but cooperation includes the production of drones, tank repairs, and is also carried out in the field of high technology.

— But the Federal Republic of Germany, for example, built a plant on the territory of Ukraine...

— Poland also has such an enterprise.

Some countries that declare such cooperation (for example, the construction of a plant for the production of military equipment) are geographically located far from the Russian Federation. And since nothing threatens them, they can talk about it. Our country is located very close, and therefore we do not talk about it. That is, the issue of geographic location in this context is very important.

— We all remember how Polish farmers blocked the border, poured out Ukrainian grain...

— First of all, I want to say that any people have the right to protest. But the destruction of grain is absolutely unacceptable, and this should not happen again.

The government of Mr. Donald Tusk declared border crossings part of critical infrastructure, since weapons are delivered through them. This decision technically limited the possibilities for protests at the border. And please note that there have been no such incidents this year.

— We are grateful to the government of Prime Minister Donald Tusk for this decision. However, it is worth noting that it left the unilateral embargo on the import of Ukrainian agricultural products. But this ban violates European rules. Because tariffs, quotas are foreign trade, which is the prerogative of the European Commission. When a country violates the rules of the European Union, in which it is going to take the presidency, this discredits it. In addition, the question arises, namely, is the Polish government going to lift this embargo?

— I would like to point out that Poland does not violate the rights of the European Union, because if we violated anything, we would have been pointed out. It is worth noting that the embargo is part of the economic policy of the Polish state to protect its economy and agriculture. This step is caused by competition that arises from a country that is not a member of the European Union. I would like our countries to intensify the conversation and cooperation in the field of agriculture in order to develop a specific algorithm for our further joint actions.

But the topic of pity for your competitor is somewhat inappropriate in such conversations.

Ukraine should look at Poland as in a mirror and, using our experience, not repeat the mistakes made by our country on the way to the European Union. When we started the negotiations, we were also deeply disappointed and even offended by the current situation, we drew attention to a certain moral aspect. But this does not work. And a certain system works in the way it was already developed and it cannot be changed. It is worth noting that today Polish agriculture has transformed. We are a country that processes agricultural crops and are in a very good position.

— We understand very well that in some industries we compete with your country. But you are already in the European Union, and we are not yet. For example, in agriculture or road transport, the competition between us is very high. The question arises: will Poland put pressure on these levers, slowing down Ukrainian European integration and expecting maximum concessions from Kyiv in these industries?

— Protecting your interests means only one thing, namely protecting your interests.

Poland will never block Ukraine's entry into the European Union. We see Ukraine as both part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and part of the European Union. This is an element of Poland's strategy for the near future. But Poland will always protect the interests of its farmers, carriers, entrepreneurs... As for grain, Ukraine grows a lot of it, and we cannot compete here. At the same time, Poland is engaged in grain processing. It is worth noting that we could find common interests here. We could organize the work in such a way that your country would grow grain, and ours would process it. This could be beneficial for all parties.

— Until recently, Polish government members made statements, the meaning of which boiled down to the fact that Ukraine would not be a member of the European Union if it did not resolve historical issues with Poland. And at the last press conference with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Prime Minister Tusk emphasized that there is "obvious progress" in complex historical Ukrainian-Polish issues.

What is the content of the agreement between the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine and Poland, Andrii Sybiha and Radoslav Sikorskyi, on the exhumation of the victims of the Volyn tragedy? And what about the protection of Ukrainian memorial sites in Poland?

— We are talking about separating two issues, namely exhumation and the arrangement of memorials.

Exhumation is a matter of humanity, because everyone has the right to find their loved ones, bury them with dignity, putting a cross on the grave and writing their name, date of birth and death on it. At the same time, the issue of memorials and the arrangement of memorial sites should be dealt with at the level of the ministries of culture and historical departments. It is worth noting that this is a key point in resolving this complex issue.

It is very important for Poles to find and bury their deceased relatives. For us, the main thing was to convey to Ukraine an understanding of how important the burial element is in Polish culture. But there was an obstacle in the form of Ukrainian law, which required going through a long procedure regarding exhumation. During this procedure, a Polish citizen had to complete as many as 19 points. It was difficult, and anyone could get confused by such bureaucracy. In addition, there were also situations when local governments did not communicate sufficiently with the central government.

Now the stage of progress in resolving historical issues is beginning. It is too early to talk about any turning point, but progress is being made. We are waiting for the spring-summer period, when it would be possible to begin exhumation work.

Actually, the European Union is a platform that helps the French and Germans, Poles and Germans communicate. We, that is, Poles and Ukrainians, are no different from, say, the Germans and the French. We are even closer to each other. Therefore, the European Union will help us conduct effective communication and resolve historical issues.

— Poland is one of the countries that has accepted the largest number of refugees from Ukraine. Are any changes expected in the near future regarding the conditions of their stay in your country?

— The Ukrainians who have found shelter in Poland are treated with great sympathy. It is worth mentioning that we currently have about three million people who fled from the war. They are part of the social and economic system of the country. In addition, it is also worth noting that they, like Polish citizens, have rights and are also subject to taxes. Also, Ukrainian refugees have all the same preferences as Polish citizens. Undoubtedly, Ukrainian mothers with small children also receive financial assistance, like Polish women. In addition, a very important topic concerns Ukrainian children, who must be involved in the education system. These children must study. They can do this either in Polish, or in Ukrainian, or in both. Because if such a number of children do not regularly attend school, then this can later become a problem for both Poland and Ukraine.

And what will happen next, what will happen... As the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy says, it is everyone's personal choice how to live on: either return to Ukraine or stay in Poland.

And in conclusion, I would like to say that I am very proud that I am now serving Poland in Ukraine. Today, I manage to support many veterans' organizations and various funds. I think this is wonderful. We can say that we live in a time when our countries have excellent relations. This process began with the war, but it will end, I am sure, with Ukraine's victory and its further entry into the European Union, and thus our future common life.

You probably noticed that there is an exhibition on the fence around the embassy called "I was a Pole – a citizen of Ukraine." It is dedicated to the people who defended Ukraine, died in this war and who were Poles. These people are looking at us. And this is a guarantee that on your way to the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, our relations are and will remain very good. We will live in a wonderful common future, namely with a free Ukraine and a free Poland. And we will build this future together.

 

Read this interview in Ukrainian and russian.